DUST Search - Request for Rattati

Monkey MAC wrote:

Rei Shepherd wrote:

-The higher efficiency you talk about, does that take into the account that the weapon can overheat, because quite frankly if say an assault rifle deals 450 damage per second while it has a clip that can maintain this damage for 6 seconds and a SCR would deal 450 damage per second but can do this for 2 seconds, then what is its overheat purpose ? kick yourself to the floor while yer assaulting someone?

-the rof change will just severly hit None-turbo users as we now might have overlap in shots, turbo controller users are not gonna be affected as they do not need to think much when firing and just get the max dps at all times, where fingers are quite allot less perfect and can mess up.

I would propose to Fix the Turbo controller issue first, then see if any of the rifles, you say that more are used with Turbo, then why not FIX that first, level the playing field and then balance the weapons ?

It seems a bit counter productive to fix and lower rof on weapons based on turbo controller use, wouldnt it be easier to fox turbo abuse and then see how all the weapons work ?

You are never going to balance the weapons when 1 person gets shot with turbo and the other not, but balance it as if it wasn't used with turbo, afterwards, the turbo guy will still have the same advantage as before.

When he talks about efficiency he means in match effectiveness, the ScR is getting higher KDR and lower kill times than the other weapons, this is because it's a front loaded weapon.

The ScR works by doing large amounts of damage for a short period of time, they bsing incapacitated due to overheat constraints. But this creates an operational problem. The overheat is only a problem if you can't kill your opponent before you reach that overheat.

In any other scenario, you've already killed that guy so what difference does it matter?
Now alot of scrambler rifle user rebuke this by saying, but as soon as you put it against 2 people it's balanced.

Which is a biased arguement, since their is just an equal chance their will only be one of them and two of you. Furthermore most weapons would look underpowered/balanced when pitched against 2 enemies. That's kinda the point of teamwork.

Anyway I'm starting to digress, you say it balanced against 2 people, which means in order to reliably beat an ScR user of average skill, you need 2 people of average skill weilding a different set of weapons. One as cannon fodder and one to finish you off. So what happens when 8 memebers of your team run a scrambler rifle, you need 8 pairs to engage them, aka the entire enemy team, which bearing in mind their are still 8 people on your team left running around creates a serious force imbalance.

We infact end up with a similar situation that tankers were in, if takes more than 1 person to reliably defeat another you get a force inbalance. Now another common rebuttal is, but there is more armour tankers than shield tankers, now whole this fact is currently true, both your self and I are aware that was never always the case, in fact shields have still being paying for that since the armour buff.

But here's the thing if we look at the new Projectile profile damage of -15/+15, if shields become the most preferred tank type again, is it fair that the CR gets a damage buff in order to deal with the over popularity of shields? No? So why is it fair to give such a bonus to the ScR?

Finally people use the, it's the most skilled weapon in the game, you and I both know that's a barefaced lie, the Scrambler has similar behaviour to the other 3 rifles types, their is no travel time, their is no lower accuracy or smaller shots that are more likely to miss, nothing. The only thing skillful about the ScR is not overheating but getting close to doing so.

In my opinion the ScR needs a DPS only marginally better than the AR, (460 probably) and slightly slower overheat. This still gives enough DOT to kill most suits before the overheat, but skill comes intomthe equation alot more. The weapon also becomes less useful in CQC because with the low accuracy enviroment the overheat becomes a much mkre severly limiting factor.

I would achieve this by nerfing both DPS and Damage to around 8 shots per second (8.45 to be precise) and the relevamt damage, 58 per shot.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1735	Posted - 2014.09.02 09:01:00 - [1] - Quote First of, i am also a Day 1 SCR/Amarr assault suit user and the SCR has been my go to weapon since it was introduced. I mostly always use either Semi-Auto weapons or Bolt Action rifles in CQC because i have a need for re-adjusting my aim after each shot or burst to get a clean headshot. So for this the SCR has been a good weapon for me. I can only provide data about the gun from public games from the standpoint of Solo play as i have not done much planetary conquest experience, but my solo play experience is through the roof. My suggestion for the next hotfix would be to implement a Fix that makes the weapon Jam when used with a Turbo Controller, see how that works out and then see if it needs to be re-adjusted as i think the SCR is the most balanced weapon in the game. Except when used by Turbo controller users. and fixing it so they can no longer use it with a turbo button, they will move on because they do not have the skill required to wield this weapon without it. Ive done some extensive tests in the past with this weapon and the Combat Rifle has always out-performed my SCR at the same level of skill and character skills, the overheat gets me killed in very dicey situations like assaulting 4-6 people, i don't use allot of tactics, just the lets do this mentality as see where it gets me compared to the CR where you duck behind a wall and its reloaded again the 5 second overheats gets me killed. Ive also done click-tests manually and with a venom X and i can achieve the Rof of a turbo controller manually with a mouse, however i will not be able to achieve that same ROF if i have to aim and then try to get in 13 clicks a second, when i use the Venom X in a test-match (only done 1, for testing purposes), then the gun becomes devastating, but only then when using it with a turbo controller. On all other occasions, i do allot better with a Boundless or Six Kin Combat Rifle and this is Solo, no equipment, no orbitals against squads or not. Just check the weapon against Turbo controllers instead of nerfing it, the weapon does not deserve to be put down and while yer at it, add the same code to all the weapons so that people can't use it to negate the recoil on their guns. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Blacklight (PS4)"
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1736	Posted - 2014.09.02 09:51:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Stickied and edited Thanks for the input. The fact of the matter is that the weapon's efficiency is considerably higher than the rest of the rifle population. Those rifles are also measured against Public matches so doesn't create a comparison bias. Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that It is a skill weapon, for sure, which explains why it is less used than the other rifles. I also believe, that even with a majority of the playerbase Armor tanking, it is going to be even more efficient through the shield module improvements we are proposing, after swaying more players over to Shield Tanking. We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers. What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF? -The higher efficiency you talk about, does that take into the account that the weapon can overheat, because quite frankly if say an assault rifle deals 450 damage per second while it has a clip that can maintain this damage for 6 seconds and a SCR would deal 450 damage per second but can do this for 2 seconds, then what is its overheat purpose ? kick yourself to the floor while yer assaulting someone? -the rof change will just severly hit None-turbo users as we now might have overlap in shots, turbo controller users are not gonna be affected as they do not need to think much when firing and just get the max dps at all times, where fingers are quite allot less perfect and can mess up. I would propose to Fix the Turbo controller issue first, then see if any of the rifles, you say that more are used with Turbo, then why not FIX that first, level the playing field and then balance the weapons ? It seems a bit counter productive to fix and lower rof on weapons based on turbo controller use, wouldnt it be easier to fox turbo abuse and then see how all the weapons work ? You are never going to balance the weapons when 1 person gets shot with turbo and the other not, but balance it as if it wasn't used with turbo, afterwards, the turbo guy will still have the same advantage as before. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Blacklight (PS4)"
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1736	Posted - 2014.09.02 11:08:00 - [3] - Quote Francois Sanchez wrote: Rei Shepard wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Stickied and edited Thanks for the input. The fact of the matter is that the weapon's efficiency is considerably higher than the rest of the rifle population. Those rifles are also measured against Public matches so doesn't create a comparison bias. Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that It is a skill weapon, for sure, which explains why it is less used than the other rifles. I also believe, that even with a majority of the playerbase Armor tanking, it is going to be even more efficient through the shield module improvements we are proposing, after swaying more players over to Shield Tanking. We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers. What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF? -The higher efficiency you talk about, does that take into the account that the weapon can overheat, because quite frankly if say an assault rifle deals 450 damage per second while it has a clip that can maintain this damage for 6 seconds and a SCR would deal 450 damage per second but can do this for 2 seconds, then what is its overheat purpose ? kick yourself to the floor while yer assaulting someone? -the rof change will just severly hit None-turbo users as we now might have overlap in shots, turbo controller users are not gonna be affected as they do not need to think much when firing and just get the max dps at all times, where fingers are quite allot less perfect and can mess up. I would propose to Fix the Turbo controller issue first, then see if any of the rifles, you say that more are used with Turbo, then why not FIX that first, level the playing field and then balance the weapons ? It seems a bit counter productive to fix and lower rof on weapons based on turbo controller use, wouldnt it be easier to fox turbo abuse and then see how all the weapons work ? You are never going to balance the weapons when 1 person gets shot with turbo and the other not, but balance it as if it wasn't used with turbo, afterwards, the turbo guy will still have the same advantage as before. As long as they don't nerf the RoF too heavily, the only guys seeing the difference will be turbo controllers users. Humans generally can't get over 420 RPM, so if they lower it let's say to 500 RPM (so that guys with a trigger speed above average can still benefit of it), only the turbo controllers will be affected. And with a fire rate of 500 RPM (if you can reach it), you would have a DPS of around 600HP/s without damage mods, fairly over the assault rifle. Also keep in mind that the scrambler rifle isn't supposed to be only a rapid firing weapon, you're supposed to use the charge shot, and that's that rifle strength. If you prepare a charge shot, and then press the trigger 7 times during the rest of the second (420RPM), you'll easily get over 800HP/s. So even with the same DPS than an assault rifle (which requires a huge RoF nerf, won't happen I suppose), there would still be a use to the scrambler. Moreover, the 450 DPS of the AR needs all your bullets to hit, whereas the accuracy of the gun isn't that great, especially when compared to the scrambler rifle Seriously, the 420 human rpm crap again ? thats 7 shots a second, 500 is still only 8 shots, i can do 13 a second, now actually landing shots at 13 a second is gonna be an issue, witch the turbo user has no problems with. But really you can only click 7 times a second ? you quickly forget that with the SCR you only have a 2 second of operation time to deal your damage, after those 2 seconds its sidearm or overheat, while the AR has ample clip to keep dealing its damage for the next 4 additional seconds. Basically if you nerf the Scrambler to a maximum of say 16 shots with All skills at level 5 and an amarr Assault suit at lvl V, meaning anyone else using the weapons without those skills is gonna see what 8-10 shots Max, before it overheats, witch in this case means a 1 second of operation time or 620 damage dealt. Hmm 450 Damage/ second over a period of 6 seconds or 620 damage for 1 second with 5 seconds of overheat = 103 dps for the guy picking up the weapon for the first time, i dont think there is gonna be a second time. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Blacklight (PS4)"
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1736	Posted - 2014.09.02 11:34:00 - [4] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Rei Shepherd wrote: -The higher efficiency you talk about, does that take into the account that the weapon can overheat, because quite frankly if say an assault rifle deals 450 damage per second while it has a clip that can maintain this damage for 6 seconds and a SCR would deal 450 damage per second but can do this for 2 seconds, then what is its overheat purpose ? kick yourself to the floor while yer assaulting someone? -the rof change will just severly hit None-turbo users as we now might have overlap in shots, turbo controller users are not gonna be affected as they do not need to think much when firing and just get the max dps at all times, where fingers are quite allot less perfect and can mess up. I would propose to Fix the Turbo controller issue first, then see if any of the rifles, you say that more are used with Turbo, then why not FIX that first, level the playing field and then balance the weapons ? It seems a bit counter productive to fix and lower rof on weapons based on turbo controller use, wouldnt it be easier to fox turbo abuse and then see how all the weapons work ? You are never going to balance the weapons when 1 person gets shot with turbo and the other not, but balance it as if it wasn't used with turbo, afterwards, the turbo guy will still have the same advantage as before. When he talks about efficiency he means in match effectiveness, the ScR is getting higher KDR and lower kill times than the other weapons, this is because it's a front loaded weapon. The ScR works by doing large amounts of damage for a short period of time, they bsing incapacitated due to overheat constraints. But this creates an operational problem. The overheat is only a problem if you can't kill your opponent before you reach that overheat. In any other scenario, you've already killed that guy so what difference does it matter? Now alot of scrambler rifle user rebuke this by saying, but as soon as you put it against 2 people it's balanced. Which is a biased arguement, since their is just an equal chance their will only be one of them and two of you. Furthermore most weapons would look underpowered/balanced when pitched against 2 enemies. That's kinda the point of teamwork. Anyway I'm starting to digress, you say it balanced against 2 people, which means in order to reliably beat an ScR user of average skill, you need 2 people of average skill weilding a different set of weapons. One as cannon fodder and one to finish you off. So what happens when 8 memebers of your team run a scrambler rifle, you need 8 pairs to engage them, aka the entire enemy team, which bearing in mind their are still 8 people on your team left running around creates a serious force imbalance. We infact end up with a similar situation that tankers were in, if takes more than 1 person to reliably defeat another you get a force inbalance. Now another common rebuttal is, but there is more armour tankers than shield tankers, now whole this fact is currently true, both your self and I are aware that was never always the case, in fact shields have still being paying for that since the armour buff. But here's the thing if we look at the new Projectile profile damage of -15/+15, if shields become the most preferred tank type again, is it fair that the CR gets a damage buff in order to deal with the over popularity of shields? No? So why is it fair to give such a bonus to the ScR? Finally people use the, it's the most skilled weapon in the game, you and I both know that's a barefaced lie, the Scrambler has similar behaviour to the other 3 rifles types, their is no travel time, their is no lower accuracy or smaller shots that are more likely to miss, nothing. The only thing skillful about the ScR is not overheating but getting close to doing so. In my opinion the ScR needs a DPS only marginally better than the AR, (460 probably) and slightly slower overheat. This still gives enough DOT to kill most suits before the overheat, but skill comes intomthe equation alot more. The weapon also becomes less useful in CQC because with the low accuracy enviroment the overheat becomes a much mkre severly limiting factor. I would achieve this by nerfing both DPS and Damage to around 8 shots per second (8.45 to be precise) and the relevamt damage, 58 per shot. When we use the argument about the 2 vs 1, we mean that if we had another weapon like the Combat rifle in our hands we would still have been able to kill those 2 instead of dying due to a error on use of the SCR, mainly the overheat. Overheat is always an issue that you need to keep in the back of your mind, having to keep track of something put a burden on the user, even if it does not happen. Also about the KDR, less users use the weapon, most users of the SCR are better then average players, so while scrubs don't polute the database with missed shots and less deaths (everyone uses an AR at the start), ofcourse its KDR is gonna be allot higher. Quote: Finally people use the, it's the most skilled weapon in the game, you and I both know that's a barefaced lie, the Scrambler has similar behaviour to the other 3 rifles types, their is no travel time, their is no lower accuracy or smaller shots that are more likely to miss, nothing. The only thing skillful about the ScR is not overheating but getting close to doing so. And yet i can't come close to the things i can pull off with a RR or CR then what i can do with the SCR, yet when i run 87/3 with the CR, not as much as a single mail, but hooboy if i run 60/5 with the SCR, ill have at least 1 or 2 mails about how OP it is. Compared to how effortless the CR is to use, the SCR fails short at that by a mile. Face it, most skilled people gravitate towards, difficult weapons to use with allot of Alpha Strike damage, most regular players gravitate to the easiest weapons to use. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Blacklight (PS4)"
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1736	Posted - 2014.09.02 11:37:00 - [5] - Quote Fix the turbo controller issue first, then see where the weapons are at, i bet there won"t be allot of scramblers left. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Blacklight (PS4)"
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1738	Posted - 2014.09.02 18:56:00 - [6] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: In short you entire argument is based upon circumstantial evidence and made up opinions, your vested intrest in the weapon is clearly visible and you prodice no valid reason for the ScR being allowed to perform at it's curent effectiveness. Yeah and each time i bring out the CR and RR coment are better, you completely ignore them and this is from actually using all 3 of them at lvl V, all skills. I have no illusions as to what CCP is gonna do with the weapon, i have both CR, RR and SCR at lvl 5; ill just wipe the smile of peoples faces with both the other weapons at my disposal, but on a more serious not i have not played Dust in like 4-6 months seriously, at best ive hopped into the game on a friday night to run 3-4 games and call it quits. But, yes i do care about the weapon as it has been a fabulous companion and piece of weaponry when everyone was throwing Brick-Tanked Slayerlogi suits at me. though i gotta ask, your replies all sound like you are very very b*tthurt from being shot by it and want nothing more then nerf it to the ground, so witch weapon do you roll with? But like i said multiple times in this thread, witch you also ignore, FIX TURBO CONTROLLER ABUSE first, that will fix most of the issue this gun is facing right now, Scrub + AutoFire + 3x DamMod = InstaGib, if he can hit his target, especially on Militia Suits. Fix that and 50% of the problem goes away overnight. But like i said, i only play when i got an itch to scratch. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Blacklight (PS4)"
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1757	Posted - 2014.09.05 07:26:00 - [7] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: The last PC match I particpated in most people had over 900 eHP, the excetion being scous who 700 eHP. This requires a greater than 60% accuracy rating in order to kill most suits. Which when everyone is superstrafing like a pinball stuck between two bumpers, isn't easy. It's not a case of the ScR being OP, it's a case of their being more OP things out there. So what is it now? First you advocate to get the SCR nerfed to kingdome come, like 368 rof or something ridiculous, now you come here and say well now i need to hit 60% of my shots to drop a proto, something we all know, if you miss a few rounds, its overheat followed by death, but hooboy, werent you like telling me how "EASY" the SCR is to use? So if the gun is so easy to use, why is it hard to use it during a PC match now, all of a sudden? I mean you keep trying to tell me it does not require any skill to use this weapons..... What do you want next ? Nerf movement? people need to stand still when they fire, so you can hit em easier? I do agree on the comment that there is a whole lot of more OP things out there then the SCR, but i tought you wanted it nerfed because it was more OP then a Heavy with a Six Kin and dual reppers in his back. Seriously dude, make up your mind. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Blacklight (PS4)"
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1758	Posted - 2014.09.05 07:52:00 - [8] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Good Point, but prehaps the question should be, why are so many people stacking eHP? PC is considerably less tactical than the Master Race would have you believe. Only the OP fits are used in PC. Once EVERYTHING is balanced, the ScR will also be balanced. Then perhaps start balancing everything else, because the SCR is the only well balanced weapon in this game, but when you compare someone with good skills and 40+m SP, 900+ ehp to go up against 300 ehp militia fits with 1-3m sp and derp aim you know it is not just the weapon that causes theses new people to die by the bushes. To explain why everyone is stacking EHP in PC, while i don't even play it, its because most are all very skilled player and winning any engagement or any 2 vs 1 comes down to your skill, your reaction time and your health. If going 1 on 1, and your skill is the same, and your reaction speed is the same, the person with the highest EHP will win every encounter, its that simple, even having the drop on someone that extra EHP will allow you to turn 180 and kill him before he depletes your ehp and very skilled people require less tactics to steamroll through enemies, because why use tactics if you can drop them with just gungame. This also leads to why SCR isnt used much in competition play, the SCR has a semi random element in its core, one you cannot count on to work when you need it the most. When i played in the Squad Cup, everyone ran Brick Logi's and AR's, i thought about running the SCR but i knew it would put me at too much a disadvantage, so i even went with the ASCR, the gun we all know to be very bad, but it was better then freezing up with an overheat at a critical moment. I am perplexed this needs to be explained.... Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Blacklight (PS4)"